Brian Sabean.. time for a change

John has it right...it's Sabean. He has to go.

I agree Sabean should go.

He had a nice run from 1997 - 2002.

Besides the post 2002 trades and FA signings. Another thing which irked me was trying to prolong the rebuilding process.

A year or two ago there was a hot rumor that in 2005 while Ed Wade was the GM for the Phillies and Jim Thome was the first baseman for the Phillies, Ryan Howard was offered for Jason Schmidt. That would have been a good trade to make. Had Sabean realized that back 2005 this team should rebuild he could have possibly traded veterans for prospects back then. Of course back then other than Cain, it appears we had no one. The lack of developing young players from 1997-2006 did it for me during.

I will say since 2007 that our farm system is looking better and Sabean is surrounded by better personell. With that said, I too am not comfortable with Sabean having the trigger.

Originally posted by GiantBrad:
John has it right...it's Sabean. He has to go.

You are a very wise man GiantBrad

Originally posted by Giantjohn:
Really? You have first hand knowledge of a lot of people in LA wanting Coletti gone? I live in LA and havent read or seen anything to that affect.

As to Logan White.. well he was with the Dodgers long before Colleti and is the main person responsbile for their young talent:

"Prior to this season, White served as the Director of Amateur Scouting for the Dodgers for five seasons. In that role, he headed up the draft selections of seven players who appeared in the Major Leagues for the Dodgers last season - Chad Billingsley, Jonathan Broxton, Russell Martin, James Loney, Matt Kemp, Eric Stults and Delwyn Young. Along with his staff of amateur scouts, White's history of success in the draft, helped lead to the Dodgers being named Baseball America's 2006 Organization of the Year.

White has had unparalleled success in his first five drafts for the Dodgers, as his June 2004 First-Year Player draft was rated by Baseball America as the best draft in the National League and second best in baseball. His 2003 draft was tabbed as the best in the Major Leagues by the publication and his 2002 Draft was rated as the fourth-best draft in baseball. The Dodgers were the only team to have their draft rated in the top five in each of those three seasons. "

I don't have first hand knowledge. Obviously no one does, but that doesn't mean people aren't upset with Colletti. Maybe not right now, but he caught a lot of heat for the Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones, and Jason Schmidt signings and yes people wanted him canned. I really don't care whether or not you live in the LA area just because you didn't hear or read anything it doesn't mean a whole lot.

Originally posted by Giantjohn:
LOL at your entire post. Calling Sabean one of the better GM's in baseball is just laughable. He has failed in trades, failed in free agency, and just recently has done better with the draft thanks to having John Barr and drafting in the top 10.

Lets take your points one at a time:
1) He wont trade for an impact bat - we have needed one for 7 years and he hasnt done it.
- UH YA.. DUH He hasnt been able to draft, develop, or trade for impact bats.

2) He caters to the fans
- oh i love this one. WHat a joke. Try catering to the fans by not overpaying for stiffs and making
smart trades. Hmmm.. perhaps you forget that he traded Nathan and Liriano for AJ Pierzynski. Ya..
that was a favorite of all us knowledgable fans

3) Whens the last time he let a fan favorite walk away when he was done?
- HUH? Are you saying that he kept washed up players on the team to make the fans happy???

4) Rios for Lincecum?? Hell.. he almost made that deal. Any truly knowledgable GM would have laughed
the minute that was proposed. That was about Toronto trying to screw an inept GM.

5) Drafting??? He was pathetic for a decade. The Giants did not draft even ONE good hitter in their organization until Posey. The credit now really needs to go to John Barr.

Sorry.. but your post makes about as much as sense as keeping Sabean. I do think its commendable, however, that you choose to defend your GM. His record just isn't defendable.

so youre calling for his job, without knowing the behind the scenes details mind you, because the team has been under .500 for 4 seasons? nevermind dealing for Kent, re-upping with Bonds, fleecing the Pirates for Schmidt, the teams best MLB record in 2000, the 2002 pennant, the 2003 100 win wire-to-wire season, etc.

all the sudden were losing after the generations best hitter leaves the team. gee, i cant imagine how that could happen. for years he built the team a certain way around a very special player, and it worked. now that the special player is gone, were in a period of growing pains. talk crap about his drafting all you want, he still drafted all this pitching that has made the Giants farm system the biggest minor league hotbed for pitching prospects in recent years.

after Bonds left he had to rebuild the team, as well as reinvent the strategy. i blame him for being too gunshy to make solid f/a signings, but letting the Joe Nathan deal define his tenure here is ridiculous. it was a terrible trade, but Bonser is turning out to be a dud, and Liriano, as Santana-like as he looked, has been experiencing elbow injuries on a routine basis. we knew he had those issues. and even though Nathan for Pierzynski now looks terrible, at the time it made sense. who could have guessed a solid RP who had a couple nice seasons under his belt would become a perennial all star closer. you cant always predict that. Marmol still hasnt become that. it wasnt cut and dry.

hindsight is 20/20. what i meant by Sabean catering to the fans, is he locks up good players. Lincecum might end up costing 140 mil, but you better believe he will be a Giant for a very long time. you have to like that as a fan. i dont want to see someone like Lincecum dealt or let walk because were too cheap to keep him. and he protects the future. he makes our pitching off limits. i like that. i like not worrying about Bumgarner getting dealt for Matt Holliday.

and it doesnt hurt the team, as if hes playing favorites just to be all happy and fan friendly. the players people like help us win. thats why we like them. Sabean has his flaws. his failure to develop hitting and to go out and get the bat were missing isnt excusable, but calling for his job like hes Dave Littlefield is dumb.

were having a surprisingly good season. he isnt looking to mortgage the future for some wild goose chase pennant race in which we cant compete. be patient, and the winning days will come soon. of all seasons to get rid of him, this is the worst since 2004. the team is enjoying the best success its had since the 04 season. we will continue to get better.

Giantjohn- I agree that maybe it is time for Sabean to move on, yet I am not convinced that getting rid of Bochy is the best idea.
Even when he was with S.D. he was awesome with his Pitchers. Look at the arms that came out of that system. As a former Catcher he understands Pitchers better then they understand themselves. I think that we are lucky to have him around.

As a side note, I am not so sure that we should go for a "batter" anymore. I was one of the first to admit to all my friends that this team really needs a bat to be true winner. Now I am not so sure. Look at it this way, anyone decent is going to cut into our farm system or take one of our starting rotaion pitchers (Sanchez). Where as if we wait until the end of the season then we could make a splash in free angency and keep what we have. I felt at the beginning of the season that this was a .500 team at best. Even with us being on the cusp of a wildcard birth I still like our chances with this team.
It is not to say that I didnt like the idea of getting Holliday, Uggla (he would have been my dream grab) or anyone else that may be available but less face the facts. The A's were never going to give us a fair shot at Holiday. Florida would have us give everything that we have in Fresno for Uggla. Beyond that what bat is out there that is availible and worth it. Freddie Sanchez??? I dont know if he is really worth it in the long run. We need to be patient here. We could very easily undo everything that we started a few years ago just to be a wildcard. We have gotten this far on what we have. Lets give these guys a chance to do it.

Originally posted by SFGiants55:
so youre calling for his job, without knowing the behind the scenes details mind you, because the team has been under .500 for 4 seasons? nevermind dealing for Kent, re-upping with Bonds, fleecing the Pirates for Schmidt, the teams best MLB record in 2000, the 2002 pennant, the 2003 100 win wire-to-wire season, etc.

all the sudden were losing after the generations best hitter leaves the team. gee, i cant imagine how that could happen. for years he built the team a certain way around a very special player, and it worked. now that the special player is gone, were in a period of growing pains. talk crap about his drafting all you want, he still drafted all this pitching that has made the Giants farm system the biggest minor league hotbed for pitching prospects in recent years.

after Bonds left he had to rebuild the team, as well as reinvent the strategy. i blame him for being too gunshy to make solid f/a signings, but letting the Joe Nathan deal define his tenure here is ridiculous. it was a terrible trade, but Bonser is turning out to be a dud, and Liriano, as Santana-like as he looked, has been experiencing elbow injuries on a routine basis. we knew he had those issues. and even though Nathan for Pierzynski now looks terrible, at the time it made sense. who could have guessed a solid RP who had a couple nice seasons under his belt would become a perennial all star closer. you cant always predict that. Marmol still hasnt become that. it wasnt cut and dry.

hindsight is 20/20. what i meant by Sabean catering to the fans, is he locks up good players. Lincecum might end up costing 140 mil, but you better believe he will be a Giant for a very long time. you have to like that as a fan. i dont want to see someone like Lincecum dealt or let walk because were too cheap to keep him. and he protects the future. he makes our pitching off limits. i like that. i like not worrying about Bumgarner getting dealt for Matt Holliday.

and it doesnt hurt the team, as if hes playing favorites just to be all happy and fan friendly. the players people like help us win. thats why we like them. Sabean has his flaws. his failure to develop hitting and to go out and get the bat were missing isnt excusable, but calling for his job like hes Dave Littlefield is dumb.

were having a surprisingly good season. he isnt looking to mortgage the future for some wild goose chase pennant race in which we cant compete. be patient, and the winning days will come soon. of all seasons to get rid of him, this is the worst since 2004. the team is enjoying the best success its had since the 04 season. we will continue to get better.

While I am no fan of Sabean I don't know (and most of us aren't aware) of who has input or control behind the scenes.

I do know the failure of the trade could have been avoided with some simple decisions.

First it may have been doing "due dillegence" to at least TRY Nathan in the role before assuming he he couldn't handle it. From my memory he was a starter here and moved to the pen because of elbow issiues which seem to have been unfounded. Did he even get a save op?

Also wise would have been an investigation of the A's issues with A.J. during the playoffs the preceding season after they were beaten and referred to him as "the biggest ******* in baseball" for the Boo-ya comment after his walk-off.

While I don't disparage his play, he was pretty clearly "wrong for this market" and immediately taking the team to arbitration paved the way to a lost season, or several seasons since the need for the consistant closer we had under our nose turned into a succession of even worse mistakes like Benitez.

As Giants John has pointed out we are still paying $5 mil to Dave Roberts for not showing his face here and much to my chagrin he is corrrect that we owe Renteria 9 million + next year on a deal which was consumated far too early and with no other real competitiors bidding for him.

Clearly this is thetype of panic move for which he is known which again has let an agent best him in a process where he controls the strings. Frankly, I'm glad his hands are tied right now.

While I don't think he almost gave up Timmy for Rios it seems wise now that Cain/prospect wasn't dealt for the Prince Fielder/ JJ hardy combo off season especially if Alderson or Baumgartner or Posey was the extra bonus baby.

The early splurge and the 2 year deals other than Affeldt's in the tanking economy have caused steep losses overall in revenue this year as the team's price cutting reflects.

There will be a meeting this off season when the ownership group is called in to come up with cash out of pocket to cover a potentially large shortfall. Perhaps a million a piece? They aren't going to be happy about that so Sabean will be asked to account for the reasons.

I wouldn't want to the one standing there with him, maybe you could be his advocate. You sound convincined enough in his value.

Originally posted by ESaady:
I don't have first hand knowledge. Obviously no one does, but that doesn't mean people aren't upset with Colletti. Maybe not right now, but he caught a lot of heat for the Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones, and Jason Schmidt signings and yes people wanted him canned. I really don't care whether or not you live in the LA area just because you didn't hear or read anything it doesn't mean a whole lot.

Colleti made a few bad decisions but the fact is that no one is calling for Colleti to be fired. His team has the best record in baseball and he has made some excellent moves in the past couple of years. He got Manny for basically nothing, Casey Blake for the same, and during this off season was able to get a solid starter in Randy Wolf.

You discout Logan White because he is a disciple of Colleti who was a disciple of Sabean. LOL. White was with the Dodgers long before Colleti and is given most of the credit for the Dodgers amazing minor league system. He would be a nice addition to the Giants and not some clone of Sabean.

Originally posted by SFGiants55:
so youre calling for his job, without knowing the behind the scenes details mind you, because the team has been under .500 for 4 seasons? nevermind dealing for Kent, re-upping with Bonds, fleecing the Pirates for Schmidt, the teams best MLB record in 2000, the 2002 pennant, the 2003 100 win wire-to-wire season, etc.

all the sudden were losing after the generations best hitter leaves the team. gee, i cant imagine how that could happen. for years he built the team a certain way around a very special player, and it worked. now that the special player is gone, were in a period of growing pains. talk crap about his drafting all you want, he still drafted all this pitching that has made the Giants farm system the biggest minor league hotbed for pitching prospects in recent years.

after Bonds left he had to rebuild the team, as well as reinvent the strategy. i blame him for being too gunshy to make solid f/a signings, but letting the Joe Nathan deal define his tenure here is ridiculous. it was a terrible trade, but Bonser is turning out to be a dud, and Liriano, as Santana-like as he looked, has been experiencing elbow injuries on a routine basis. we knew he had those issues. and even though Nathan for Pierzynski now looks terrible, at the time it made sense. who could have guessed a solid RP who had a couple nice seasons under his belt would become a perennial all star closer. you cant always predict that. Marmol still hasnt become that. it wasnt cut and dry.

hindsight is 20/20. what i meant by Sabean catering to the fans, is he locks up good players. Lincecum might end up costing 140 mil, but you better believe he will be a Giant for a very long time. you have to like that as a fan. i dont want to see someone like Lincecum dealt or let walk because were too cheap to keep him. and he protects the future. he makes our pitching off limits. i like that. i like not worrying about Bumgarner getting dealt for Matt Holliday.

and it doesnt hurt the team, as if hes playing favorites just to be all happy and fan friendly. the players people like help us win. thats why we like them. Sabean has his flaws. his failure to develop hitting and to go out and get the bat were missing isnt excusable, but calling for his job like hes Dave Littlefield is dumb.

were having a surprisingly good season. he isnt looking to mortgage the future for some wild goose chase pennant race in which we cant compete. be patient, and the winning days will come soon. of all seasons to get rid of him, this is the worst since 2004. the team is enjoying the best success its had since the 04 season. we will continue to get better.

Where to start...LOL. OK.. if you want to live in the past and bring up trades from a decade ago and throw those out fine. If a GM has been in a job as long as Sabean has hopefully he has done SOMETHING right. A GM should be evaluated in the draft, trades, and free agency. Lets look at Sabean's record:

Trades:
1) Sabean made one of the worst trades in history when he traded Joe Nathan for Bonser, Liriano, and JOE NATHAN. WHo did he get.. AJ Pierzynski who was a clubhouse cancer and walked after 1 yr

2) He has made 3 deals only in his entire 13 years that were wins: Those were the Kent , Schmidt, and Nen deals. Years 1996, 1997, and 2001. He hasnt made a good deal of any impact in 8 years.

Drafts:
His record for the most part has been horrrible. The Giants under Sabean drafted and developed 1 hitter - yes 1 hitter that made any impact in the majors... Bill Mueller. That is a pathetic record. It is really the reason why the Giants have a horrible lineup now and why they couldnt make many deals.. because they had so little talent in their system. As far as recently.. sure its been better after John Barr as scouting director and when they started getting top 10 picks each year.

Free Agency
WOW.. SO many names.. so many bombs
Barry Zito
Edgardo Alfonso
Arron Rowand
Dave Roberts
MAtt Morris
Armadno Benitez
Edgar Renteria

Its basically the whose who of FA busts. Thanks for your brillance Brian! Here is the other kicker.. when Sabean had a chance to sign a quality free agent like Vlad Guerrero to help protect the greatest hitter of our generation.. he failed to do so. He didnt trade for a quality bat or sign one to put the Giants over the hump.

SO .. you can be happy that Brian "caters' to the fans. I would tend to look at his record in free agency, the draft, his trades, and his failure to surround Bonds with the talent to win it all. You can be satisified to have a GM that hasnt had a winner in 5 years. I do not accept his failures and his inability to make smart decisions. Giants fans deserve better.

Originally posted by NorCal:
Giantjohn- I agree that maybe it is time for Sabean to move on, yet I am not convinced that getting rid of Bochy is the best idea.
Even when he was with S.D. he was awesome with his Pitchers. Look at the arms that came out of that system. As a former Catcher he understands Pitchers better then they understand themselves. I think that we are lucky to have him around.

As a side note, I am not so sure that we should go for a "batter" anymore. I was one of the first to admit to all my friends that this team really needs a bat to be true winner. Now I am not so sure. Look at it this way, anyone decent is going to cut into our farm system or take one of our starting rotaion pitchers (Sanchez). Where as if we wait until the end of the season then we could make a splash in free angency and keep what we have. I felt at the beginning of the season that this was a .500 team at best. Even with us being on the cusp of a wildcard birth I still like our chances with this team.
It is not to say that I didnt like the idea of getting Holliday, Uggla (he would have been my dream grab) or anyone else that may be available but less face the facts. The A's were never going to give us a fair shot at Holiday. Florida would have us give everything that we have in Fresno for Uggla. Beyond that what bat is out there that is availible and worth it. Freddie Sanchez??? I dont know if he is really worth it in the long run. We need to be patient here. We could very easily undo everything that we started a few years ago just to be a wildcard. We have gotten this far on what we have. Lets give these guys a chance to do it.

NorCal.. I think Bochy has done a good job with the talent he has and probably deserves to stay. I just think that if the Giants do fire Sabean that a GM may want to bring in a younger energetic manager to kind of start a new era. Bochy has done fine this year but in the bigger picture I could see the team going in another direction.

Originally posted by LUser:
While I am no fan of Sabean I don't know (and most of us aren't aware) of who has input or control behind the scenes.

I do know the failure of the trade could have been avoided with some simple decisions.

First it may have been doing "due dillegence" to at least TRY Nathan in the role before assuming he he couldn't handle it. From my memory he was a starter here and moved to the pen because of elbow issiues which seem to have been unfounded. Did he even get a save op?

Also wise would have been an investigation of the A's issues with A.J. during the playoffs the preceding season after they were beaten and referred to him as "the biggest ******* in baseball" for the Boo-ya comment after his walk-off.

While I don't disparage his play, he was pretty clearly "wrong for this market" and immediately taking the team to arbitration paved the way to a lost season, or several seasons since the need for the consistant closer we had under our nose turned into a succession of even worse mistakes like Benitez.

As Giants John has pointed out we are still paying $5 mil to Dave Roberts for not showing his face here and much to my chagrin he is corrrect that we owe Renteria 9 million + next year on a deal which was consumated far too early and with no other real competitiors bidding for him.

Clearly this is thetype of panic move for which he is known which again has let an agent best him in a process where he controls the strings. Frankly, I'm glad his hands are tied right now.

While I don't think he almost gave up Timmy for Rios it seems wise now that Cain/prospect wasn't dealt for the Prince Fielder/ JJ hardy combo off season especially if Alderson or Baumgartner or Posey was the extra bonus baby.

The early splurge and the 2 year deals other than Affeldt's in the tanking economy have caused steep losses overall in revenue this year as the team's price cutting reflects.

There will be a meeting this off season when the ownership group is called in to come up with cash out of pocket to cover a potentially large shortfall. Perhaps a million a piece? They aren't going to be happy about that so Sabean will be asked to account for the reasons.

I wouldn't want to the one standing there with him, maybe you could be his advocate. You sound convinced enough in his value.

come on guys, youre acting like im calling sabean a great GM. he has his flaws all over the place. he drives me insane. but jumping the gun and firing him before we see his post-bonds era plan either succeed or fail, is bad management. if by the end of 2010 we arent a playoff caliber team, or very close, then fire him.

but right now, the team is looking good. alot better than we expected this season. and i dont think its that easy to just find another GM thatll know what theyre doing and be successful. if finding those kinds of guys was easy, there wouldnt be so many perennially awful baseball teams.

btw, you really had to go out of your way to misspell Bumgarner.

i hate when i get stuck defending something im not 100% in support of, just because someone is being ridiculous in judgement. yes, sabean hasnt been making good moves in years, yes he signs old, expensive f/a who dont do anything, yes hes obsessed with signing mediocre players who beat up the giants, but overall arent that great (shea hillenbrand, steve finley, dave roberts, etc)

he annoys the crap out of me sometimes, but be realistic here. Giantjohn, this means you. go ahead and fire him, but who do you have in mind to replace him with, thats just sitting around without a GM job, that will magically start making all the moves sabean didnt, and propelling us to a WS with a young team?

Originally posted by SFGiants55:
come on guys, youre acting like im calling sabean a great GM. he has his flaws all over the place. he drives me insane. but jumping the gun and firing him before we see his post-bonds era plan either succeed or fail, is bad management. if by the end of 2010 we arent a playoff caliber team, or very close, then fire him.

but right now, the team is looking good. alot better than we expected this season. and i dont think its that easy to just find another GM thatll know what theyre doing and be successful. if finding those kinds of guys was easy, there wouldnt be so many perennially awful baseball teams.

btw, you really had to go out of your way to misspell Bumgarner.

i hate when i get stuck defending something im not 100% in support of, just because someone is being ridiculous in judgement. yes, sabean hasnt been making good moves in years, yes he signs old, expensive f/a who dont do anything, yes hes obsessed with signing mediocre players who beat up the giants, but overall arent that great (shea hillenbrand, steve finley, dave roberts, etc)

he annoys the crap out of me sometimes, but be realistic here. Giantjohn, this means you. go ahead and fire him, but who do you have in mind to replace him with, thats just sitting around without a GM job, that will magically start making all the moves sabean didnt, and propelling us to a WS with a young team?

Well, perhaps you aren't the one to advocate for him to ownership.

The thing is he is in the last year of his deal. No one is firing him, or jumping the gun. He is "being evaluated" and will be allowed to be reviewed with other candidates.

Are you suggesting a 1 year deal? or a multi-year deal in which we fire him a year later and let him walk with the remainder of the money after flopping AGAIN?

I am not saying great GM's grow on trees, but with the amount of teams including the Rockies, Marlins, Rays and others who have also made the World Series since we built the powerhouse that was supposed to accomplish winning same that makes at least 3 gm's right there who have done more with less payroll, less bad decisions and less overall criticism from those who cover the sport.

I agree also that the teams is better than expected, but how much of the credit is Sabean's. Can you quantify how much is his responsibility?

The third and fouth paragraphs you write make it clear you, yourself think he has underperformed in many areas consistantly and that his best days are behind him judging fron the fact he track record is progressively worse despite minor "wins" since 2003. Exactly how far under 100% are you in support of him?

Also, why does this person we hire have to be a currently unemployed retread GM. How about mining another organization for a J.P. Ricchardi or a Theo Epstein they seem to have done pretty well assembling talent for the future.

Originally posted by SFGiants55:
come on guys, youre acting like im calling sabean a great GM. he has his flaws all over the place. he drives me insane. but jumping the gun and firing him before we see his post-bonds era plan either succeed or fail, is bad management. if by the end of 2010 we arent a playoff caliber team, or very close, then fire him.

but right now, the team is looking good. alot better than we expected this season. and i dont think its that easy to just find another GM thatll know what theyre doing and be successful. if finding those kinds of guys was easy, there wouldnt be so many perennially awful baseball teams.

btw, you really had to go out of your way to misspell Bumgarner.

i hate when i get stuck defending something im not 100% in support of, just because someone is being ridiculous in judgement. yes, sabean hasnt been making good moves in years, yes he signs old, expensive f/a who dont do anything, yes hes obsessed with signing mediocre players who beat up the giants, but overall arent that great (shea hillenbrand, steve finley, dave roberts, etc)

he annoys the crap out of me sometimes, but be realistic here. Giantjohn, this means you. go ahead and fire him, but who do you have in mind to replace him with, thats just sitting around without a GM job, that will magically start making all the moves sabean didnt, and propelling us to a WS with a young team?

Sabean should annoy the hell out of you. I just documneted on another post why he has failed in all aspects of what a GM is held accountable for. He has a horrible draft record over his entire duration as GM and an even worse job in signing free agents. You don't defend the guy very well becauuse your posts just back up everything that I have said. LOL Go back and look at your last post. It is hilarious. Thank you for agreeing on my points.

As far as who I would hire.. well I gave you two other names already that I would consider and they are John Barr and Logan White. Do they have a track record as GM? No. Would I trust them over Sabean? Hell yes.

By the way.. your posts calling me stupid and my judgement ridiculous is getting old. You cannot refute anything that I write as backup for my opinion and all you do is basically support what I say when you post.
Quit being a homer and look at the facts. Or.. is it just the fact that Sabean signs our fan favorites to long term contracts and is fan friendly really all you care about. LOL I still laugh at how utterly "stupid" that is.

Originally posted by LUser:
Well, perhaps you aren't the one to advocate for him to ownership.

The thing is he is in the last year of his deal. No one is firing him, or jumping the gun. He is "being evaluated" and will be allowed to be reviewed with other candidates.

Are you suggesting a 1 year deal? or a multi-year deal in which we fire him a year later and let him walk with the remainder of the money after flopping AGAIN?

I am not saying great GM's grow on trees, but with the amount of teams including the Rockies, Marlins, Rays and others who have also made the World Series since we built the powerhouse that was supposed to accomplish winning same that makes at least 3 gm's right there who have done more with less payroll, less bad decisions and less overall criticism from those who cover the sport.

I agree also that the teams is better than expected, but how much of the credit is Sabean's. Can you quantify how much is his responsibility?

The third and fouth paragraphs you write make it clear you, yourself think he has underperformed in many areas consistantly and that his best days are behind him judging fron the fact he track record is progressively worse despite minor "wins" since 2003. Exactly how far under 100% are you in support of him?

Also, why does this person we hire have to be a currently unemployed retread GM. How about mining another organization for a J.P. Ricchardi or a Theo Epstein they seem to have done pretty well assembling talent for the future.

Very well said. You may not to know to spell Bumgarner but you make a hell of a lot more sense than our Sabean supporter. Everything you said in this post was 100% spot on.

Originally posted by Giantjohn:
Very well said. You may not to know to spell Bumgarner but you make a hell of a lot more sense than our Sabean supporter. Everything you said in this post was 100% spot on.

There was a time I paid more attention to the farm guys, but after so many came and went without impact I concentrated on the players I could see play.

To paraphrase Joe Morgan "I like Major Leaguers". Really when you think of the amount of 4-A type players there are he makes sense. You could trade a guy through 3 organizations and have him emerge like say Brandon Phillips but how often does it happen. Guys either have IT or they don't and the great ones usually have some sort of early flourish that portends their arrival.

Not so much like Will's homer off the Express, but I knew Sandoval had something when I saw his pre at bat routine last year. I didn't know him then but made note of the fact that doing such a thing (particularly the skip through the box towards the mound/pitcher showed an inate confidence that he belonged where he was.

It reminded me of that Robbie Thompson interview where he flat out said he was here to stay.

Lewis and Schierholtz don't seem to carry themselves the same way.

I also wish things were different for Brian because he had to endure the meddling of McGowan and most likely Bonds too, as well as navigate through the cutthroat waters of the job. his was a very unique balancing act managing through egos like that and those of Baker, Alou, and to a lesser extent Jeff Kent.

His failure is believing too much in Bonds and too little in the evidence that having a foil like Kent rather than the "Bonds approved" yes men that followed made Barry and the whole team better. Maybe it was Bonds the froze out Vlad or anyone who would ride his coattails to an MVP of his own.

It wouldn't surprise me.

Still and all, this last off season mistakes were made (payroll mostly) which have kept us from doing more here at the break.